Moving to Belgium without dutch knowledge. Bad Idea?

Hi,

if you consider living in Wallonia or Brussels, it's not necessary to know dutch, practically everyone speaks or can speak French there. Brussels is officially "bilingual" so you'll meet dutch-speaking people, but most of them speak French or English on a very good level, so communication shouldn't be a problem.
In Wallonia dutch is only taught in schools (the basics), outside school doors, French is the spoken language.
The knowledge of dutch could make the job search easier, though, as quite some companies ask for a (basic) knowledge of dutch, but it's not necessary, I think especially not for an expat.
About living in Brussels, it's true that the city itself is not a good place to raise children, but you could consider the outskirts of Brussels, for exemple Huizingen or Beersel, ... . The outskirts are close to the city, so ideal if you want to find a job in the capital, but they are quite and rural, so nice to live and grow up in. It feels like being in a village far away from the big city there, even though you're so close to it.If I'm not mistaken, there's also a quite large Greek community in the outskirts of Brussels.
I hope I could help you a bit with this answer. If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

Marthe

thank you very much.

have you any idea about the cost to rent?
how much is a 2-bedroom flat in a middle class Brussels municipalitiy,
and how much in an out of the capital town (like Huizingen ,Beersel).

and,

what do you think of the elections results there?
Do you think that major changes in the constitution (regarding the level of autonomy, etc) are very propable?

or the economic problems will prevent that?
(I mean, a united Belgium seems more capable of dealing with the financial crisis, than 2 or 3 separate entities on their own).

Hi,

As I moved to Luxembourg myself, I'm not sure about the recent renting prices, but I'm guessing it'll be in between 700 and 900 euros a month, depending of the area. One of the most popular and biggest websites that is used to find appartments is IMMOWEB: http://www.immoweb.be/fr, so maybe you can do a bit of research there to get an idea of the prices these days.

And the results of the elections, well, I'm not sure what to think about it. The flemish people indeed want to get more autonomy, and the new ruling flemish policital party will do it's best to gain as much autonomy as possible, but I sincerely hope it will just stay with some changes for each of the communities and that the new gouvernment will find a way to make it work out together, as one state.
If they indeed get more autonomy, Flandres and Brussels will benefit from it, I think, but Wallonia will be quite affected, they'll need to do big changes in order to get out of their financial problems.
If it appears once again that the gouvernment can't agree on things, I think the ruling flemish party might get it into its head to separate, which will be a very bad idea financially and culturally, so let's hope it won't get that far.
For now, there's hope for compromises and for a gouvernment that might find a way out of the policital crisis, so let's try to stay positive, but even if Belgium would separate, in my opinion, Brussels will be the entity that will be least affected, as that's the most prospering area nowadays and as it's one of the European area's.

Well, I couldn't really provide you with answers there, but hope to have helped out at least a bit

Marthe

Hello Marthe and Alex,

I've been reading the reply of Marthe to your questions and there are some issues that i disagree with and would like to discuss via conference with both of you to avoid long mails, etc.

Goodnight,

Johan
(39y.) Born and reased in Ghent (Flanders) and now leading a company in Brussels.

Alex, if you're going to move to Flanders then I'd recommend you know at least some basic Dutch because if not, it's a struggle.

Take this from someone with first hand experience who is currently in this boat!

Hi Alex,

I see your last post on this was almost two months ago so you've maybe already made the move to Belgium, but I was in a similar sort of boat too; we moved to Wallonia at the start of the year, and apart from all the logistics of the move itself, my main concerns were to do with getting a job and being able to speak Dutch or French in-order to get a job.

My wife had a job secured already before we moved, but I was also looking for a Software Developer role, and I didn't speak French or Dutch to anything like the standard I'd need for work. You're right - there really aren't many job opportunities for us in Wallonia compared with Brussels. So when I did get a job (which asked for "English and French/Dutch";) it was a job in Brussels.

Personally, I think the job market is pretty good in Belgium. I even think the transport network is great (apart from the 1 day per month when it isn't). Luckily I don't have to drive through Brussels each day. Collegues often complain that the south is a drain on the taxes - but in my experience, the roads at least seem to be in better condition in Flanders than in the south.

One of the great things about Belgium for jobs is that you can live in Belgium and work somewhere else (in Luxembourg or Maastricht for instance) - there are many possibilities.

I don't think that a split would have such serious implication as the media portray - but I would still hate to see it happen. My grasp of Belgium economic history is sketchy - but I don't think the country should seperate either because of language, or economy - eg I don't think Flanders should "cut off" Wallonia just because it's industry has been in decline.

So where did you end-up: Flanders, Wallonia.. or somewhere "in-between"?

We were going to move to Ghent originally but ended up in Liege. Collegues are almost apologetic when I tell them I live in Liege (- they don't seem to have a good opinion of eg Liege or Charleroi). I agree it isn't the nicest looking compared with Ghent, Brugge, etc but that's about the only complaint I might have... that, and the pot-holes in the roads. The people are mostly great. I think I provide entertainment to shop owners whenever I try to speak French. I was worried people would treat me with distain if I didn't speak French properly - but it really hasn't been the case.

Very nice reply, thank you.

from what you write, You seem to like the life in Belgium better than the UK. is it?

and.. Didi you find a job in match with your expectations?
better or worse paid than in the UK?
for doing something interesting or mundane?

You got the job after a lot of search, or easily?

---------------------------------------------
Two months after,
the situation has not changed much, but I have put The Netherlands as my 1st preference as a destination.
after reading many articles, blog posts, and forum topics from expats, about Belgium, Holland, France and Switzerland,
I really put it in my head that one way or the other, I must learn an extra language (besides greek and english that I command), in order to live and work in any of the above countries.
so, I'll just put the language criterion to the background, and deciding on other things, I really like The Netherlands most.

I've been reading the basics of the dutch language (on my own) for the last month, and I dont find it so dificult (if you know good english).

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What has come up in these 2 months, is that the most difficult part will be to leave our country (and not to decide where we'll land after leaving).
Here we have 3 parents. 2 steady jobs (no big bucks, but we have them, while many others struggle with unemployment), a house we own (no loans, credit cards, etc.), and some friends.
If I was a bachelor, I would have fled months ago, even if it was to the icy Finland :)
but my wife is not so determined, and fears she wont manage to get a jod abroad.

Two weeks of vacations follow. I hope we get some time to discuss it further.

Yes, life's better with family and friends closer-by but I don't miss other aspects of the UK.
Neither the UK or Belgium are necessarily well-known for their cuisine - depends how you cook for yourself I supose.
Belgian cuisine is slightly better because "Boulet et Frites" is awesome (Liege specialty I think)
The weather in Belgium is better than the UK (colder winters but drier in general, and better summer) - but then I can't tell a
Greek that the weather in Belgium is "good" either:-) (When I went to Greece it was 44 degrees and that is like
an oven for me).
And I can still do all my passtimes in Belgium the same as the UK.
And if you asked me I would say I prefer the people in Belgium than the UK - but thats a heavy generalisation ofcourse.

With the job, it did take a couple of months, and yes I did apply to a lot of places - but I was prepared for that and thankful for the first job offer I got.

It's an international company (which is no surprise in Belgium) and its using a totally new programing language for me and its a lot less stressful than the Banking Sector which I was in before. I think you're much more likely to find a job in a commercial bank than an investment bank in Belgium.

My cost of living has dropped after moving to Belgium even though the food is more expensive here (assuming £0.8 = 1Euro). We get almost 14 months pay per year depending on company/personal results which seems to be normal here, as well as meal vouchers, travel paid for.

I think the Netherlands is also a good choice. We like crossing the border and noticing the differences - it's true, people there ride bikes around a lot, and we haven't met someone who didn't speak any English - seems a nice life-style - quite cultured and easy going.
My wife speaks three languages fluently so she also finds Dutch easy-ish to understand since she knows English and German. I find it difficult and can't understand why I can learn a programming language in an hour and it takes me so long to pick-up a second spoken language.

We also considered France and Switzerland. Theres a lot of opportunities in Sophia-Antipolis near Nice for IT people, and with Switzerland I think generally the standard of living is very high. It seems to be a slightly harder country to "get into" - is that what you've found? I guess it depends mostly on whether you have a job secured before you go. Also the Swiss economy is extremely strong now.
I think Salaries in Luxembourg are higher than Brussels - don't know how they compare with The Netherlands.

I think the difference with two weeks holiday for you is that you can stay at home right? - I mean swimming in the Med is surely better than swimming in the English Channel / Manche / North Sea?

Well, we live in Athens.
and Athens from June to August IS an OVEN :)

and although I can be in an athenian beach, with half an hours drive, there is no chance I stay here during my holidays. (the only reason would be if I was broke).

We've booked a room in central Greece (Pelion), for 50-60 euros a day.
so, 2 week will cost us between 1000 to 1300 eu.
and still, that's not very expensive. If we went to an island (Creta, Corfu, Rhodes, or Paros), with a car, it would be much more expensive.
That is no "staying at home" :)

if I choose Spain or Holland, for vacations, the price would not be so much higher.
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From what I have read about Switzerland, is that :
Job market very competitive. One of the 2 languages (FR/DE) is a must, while in BE or NL many have survived just with their english.
Their salaries seem rocket high for a greek or belgian, but so is the cost to rent inside the big cities.
Taxation is very low (compared to greek, belgian, french).
Integration for newcomers seems harder than in BE/NL/LUX.
maybe their more like France in that.
and most important, their are not a full member of the EU (whatever this means for the right to free mobility, etc.).
They have signed the Schenghen treaty, so a Greek or a Briton going there is always in a better position than an expat from non-EU countries
, but not in the same "friendly" legal environment he would be if moving to FR/BE/NL.

The swiss cantons have a great deal of autonomy from the central government, maybe each one deals differently with immigration, education, work permits, etc..
Their immigration policies are a little "gray" for a non expert, and I dont have the patience to research it more.

13 months after my original post, and the show did go on, as it always does.

I now live in The Hague, since May.
After hundreds of applications, and less than 10 interviews, It seems a job is very close.

thank you all!!

Hi there! I have been reading your posts and I have to say thank you for sharing your experiences with the rest of the people that is in the same situation, considering the idea of moving abroad.,By the way, My name is Lorena, originally from Argentina, presently living in Australia, EU citizen from Italy. Yes!...as you can see, I am a bit of a mix of nationalities!
I am single, 28 years old and have lots of experience in customer service roles, working for the airlines industry and some experience at airport operational roles. I have done it since I was 20 so most of my knowledge is based on that. I also got a degree in tourism. Anyway...to go straigh it the point, Iwould really appreciate if any of you could help me as I am searching for some advice from people that is actually leaving and working in Belgium (I guess Antwerp would be the area I prefer to live in as I got some friends). I would like to know my real chances of getting a job overthere. I speak Spanish and English and not a clue of dutch (I bought the Dutch for dummies which I hope it will help me sort it out, at least the basics, something to begin with).
Of course I know that when you first move overseas you need to be prepared for the hard times to come til you can sort it out. well....thats the reason why I could really use some advice people!
Thanks, thanks, thanks!!!!

How are you? It sounds like the odds are against you when you don't know Dutch... But not completely.. I work for a large online job board (StepStone) and I did a quick search with your skills. I guess you speak Italian as well as Spanish and English? If so then maybe check this out (for instance). http://www.stepstone.be/jobs--TWO-Multilingual-Customer-Serv
ice-Agent-Mont-Saint-Guibert-Fenwal-Europe-sprl--1022878-inl
ine.html.

I couldn't see much else related to Tourism or within one of the Belgian Airports though. Sometimes the best thing to do is to go and live somewhere first and then you *have* to get a job (rather than try to get a job beforehand). But I don't think I should try to preach that to you - you have clearly been around the world a bit!

Hi Andrew, I am very good. How are you?
Thank you so much for your response...i have been around but not much to be honest. I was raced in Argentina and understand the basics of Italian, but due to my background and the similarities with spanish It wouldnt be hard for me to catch up on with the language. You gave me a good clue...I am thinking that improving my Italian could be an asset (not hard to achieve for me in a short term).
To be honest I have been trying to move on from the tourism industry but as the years go by is becoming more and more difficult as all my experienced is based on that....anyway...thanks again for your time!

Well good luck with it, I'm sure there are lots of options to investigate, especially given your skills with language which I really envy, I guess Dutch would come pretty quickly to you too. I've only been up to Antwerpen once myself but my first impressions were that it was pretty nice.

As you read in the first messages I am Greek,
but also Argentinian, f

I am no expert in Belgium. That was what I was looking in this forum.

Also, do not count on learning Dutch, in 6mo or 1 year. (hust with a language school)
.
I also did a lesson per week while leaving in Greece, for 5 months, and I am still a dummy beginner .

In 1 year, if living in BE/NL, and with very hard work, and if you hang out with Dutch speakers, and you can force them NOT to switch to English (because that is the easy way to do for them),
maybe you reach a satisfactory level.

There are a couple of blogs, written by Argenitinian women, living in NL,
chech out

http://leti-locatelli.blogspot.com/

http://fromargentina2holland.blogspot.com/

http://holandahispanica.blogspot.com/
(maybe the last is from Spain)

good luck

What a coincidence!, you are half Argentinian, its a small world! Anyway, thank you very much for the information. I will definitely dive into those web sites.
So, How is it life going overthere?