Postado em Suiça forum
Is it just me or is it really hard to find some people in Switzerland who are willing to make good friends with you (especially to foreigners)??
I've been there for only 6 months and I heard you need at least 3 months to completely settle down there so maybe I've been there just too short...what do you think?
Usuario deletado
PS, forgot to say one last thing...
Postado por V. V. Enriques em Suiça forum
About the Swiss people: my comments above denigrate the swiss corporation attitude not its people. As I said the Swiss are fine.
But ask yourself this question: If foreigners overflow, one day in your country, and they do not respect your country, should you be friends or distant from him/her? In other words, the Swiss have so many foreigners all around them and many of these expats are plain impolite, rude and loud. Does a swiss necessarily want you? On the other hand, yes the swiss needs foreigners as they are the ones filling the pockets with money for bar/restaurant owners and other businesses.
Where I live, I would say that the Brits (who seem to have planted their flag llike good'ol imperialists have done for countless years) are the rough patch in this region, not the swiss.
Friends and other things
Postado por V. V. Enriques em Suiça forum
I have lived in the canton de Vaud for the last 3 years.There are many good sides to where I am living (I cannot say for the rest of switzerland). Some people are nice and making friends is a tough job. Since I moved here, my friends are all foreigners. In the last year, I have met a wonderful swiss italian woman and she introduced me to her 100% swiss friends and I must say that they are simply fine and cool people, motivated and ready to party (like there is no tomorrow) when the hour comes!!!! and be serious and productive when need be.This said, you can go to your local boring drink hole and try to hook up with xenophobe swiss or xenophobe brits (as they all stick together, mostly) or xenophobe whatever or you can stray out of the regular path and meet very interesting people. It is how you handle it and not how others should about you.
Fact remains that hooking up with swiss people is harder as the swiss have lived in an overprotected environment, silver spooned, one which has created much wealth and which stays in their hands. Never expect more than what you bought for as the swiss calculate everything (even down to icecubes for your warm coca cola that you just so happened to order at the restaurant.... i mean the icecube is free but the face of the waiters or the owner when you ask for icecubes... it is almost the end of the world).
The service (like in Paris and other smaller euro cities) is devastating except in Banking and Telephony services. I have never seen such terrible service in stores or restaurants. It even motivated me to want to create a business to ''show'' the swiss salespeople proper business etiquette... but I let go of the idea cuz they just don't really care about making you (the end buyer) happy...
Everything costs and everything is a CARTEL mentality (coop, emil frey, migros, etc). Talk about price fixing and the funny thing is that the swiss like it that way (sheep style). It does say something about their will to protest!! Thus swiss are afraid to protest because of the change it will create and which will forcefully throw them in utter mayhem. I always go to France (better choices and much larger inventory of foods.... and all way cheaper but the terrible service persists!!!!).
Swiss are institutionally cheap. They have sooooo much wealth but they will not support their teams (FC and HC). The Swiss need 40 caring companies to offer their sports people some financial aid. This can be good and bad but in general can be of negative perception.
There are so many negatives things one can say about their host country. Switzerland is a beautiful country. Sterile in a certain sense, as my Dad once said to me. He found that all the little towns are all equal to one another. Secondly, he also said there is no variety in any of the restaurants: Steak, Perche or Pizza..... no creativity on the food side. I learned that my Dad was not fond of Switzerland!!! And they all overcharge....
But in general, Switzerland is a fun place but you have to tame it (not that its wild or exciting or anything) but you always have to make the best out of any situation.... wherever you be in the World!!
Thanks
Postado por Roger B em Suiça forum
Yeah, I know, I somehow have the propensity to drift into essay-like answers...it's just that I think to explore a difficult topic, sometimes a long and detailed answer is required. And by the way, having read a fair deal of your posts, I'd say your sense of humour is very visible and that your criticism isn't always ment to be taken at face value (though legitimate) is evident, at least for me (and as you said, I'm a cold-hearted, seclusive no-nonsense Swiss, so it shouldn't be difficult for all others to recognize... :-)!
I guess your advice is a good way to start. Don't assume Switzerland to be a land of milk and honey or heaven on earth. It's a great place but has its peculiarities and follies. The Swiss in general are reserved, come across as cold, but with hard work and the fair share of luck, you get your way around and probably will find some of the most loyal friends you could ever think of. Learn the local language (for starters, German or French will do, but if you are planning on staying here longer, picking up a few words in local dialect will charm the Swiss - as I've mentioned before, we're pretty prickly when it comes to not being mistaken as our neighbours - i.e. Germans, Italians, French).
And of course "the Swiss" can be very divers. For instance, I like if people are aware of our system, know what is going on in the country (i.e. political & cultural) and show an interest in the place. I can't help but perceive it as somewhat dismissive if someone has been here for several years but still doesn't know that we are not ruled by a prime-minister or president, have a federal system and pay taxes at three levels. I don't mind to talk politics with foreigners (testament to it should be my posts here) and think it's ok for someone to express his opinion (as long as it's brought forward in a constructive and informed manner). Now, that's my view. There might be others thinking that it's none of your business talking politics or history if you ain't a citizen... so be carefull and try to gauge your vis-à-vis, probably you'll notice what topics are adequate to talk about. But showing a sense of knowledge about our country will always charm us and be a good entry point into a discussion (and if it is only that you know that we celebrate the all-mythical "Rütlischwur" on August 1).
And as for that animosity towards the Germans, well, I guess you could write a book about that. I think it's a combination of things. For one part it might be the desire to underpin our distictiveness from them. That's also the reason why the dialect is so prevalent in Switzerland, it's something that sets us apart from the Germans (and most of them have difficulties understanding us). Another part might be some sense of lingual inferiority complex because we are inherently (through our speaking of dialect) less skillfull in speaking "standard" German (we're perceived as being slower and most of the time carry a very destinctive accent). Add to this that to their polished way of speaking, the Germans are often perceived to be very bossy in their behaviour and not in line with our cherished custom of being very reserved and polite. Another, inferiority complex-ey kind of thing is that the very fact you mention (that the Germans don't take issue with the Swiss), often the Germans have a complete lack of knowledge about Switzerland or, when encountering one of us, kind of perceive our way of talking as "cute" (in the childish sense of the word). That transmits an image to us of being disrespected or not taken at full value. There's probably even more to ad to the list of issues but one, in my mind, rules supreme and has aggravated the situation majorily: Quantity. The pace of German immigration over the last couple of years has taken a marked increase. They are now the most common group of foreigners, meaning that their increasing number leads to even more problems of the sort described above. Plus, the Germans know our language (sort-of), enjoy a level of education similar to ours and are therefore perceived to be a threat to jobs. To be fully transparent, I'm not free of those feelings either and it kind of bugs me when I am walking through Zurich City and all I hear is standard German, when in our hospitals there seem to be only German nurses and doctors, if our Universities & Colleges are flooded (to the expense of the tax-payer - roughly 500 MCHF) by German students or when in every other company the CFO & CEO are hailing from our northern neighbour. As I mentioned in my previous post, that leaves behind a feeling of unease and worry about the future of our nation and the sell out of one's own country.
Agrees
Postado por Daniel L em Suiça forum
Hi Roger and Wow, what a long answer.
Finally!! Finally someone gets my sense of humour!! Yay!..and you're Swiss :o
I happen to agree with you 100 %. To my mind, it does not really matter where in Europe you live as a 'real' foreigner (Roman catholic actually) one will face the same or similar difficulties. Switzerland is just extra extra special in this, because I have lived all over the world and have not had these difficulties anywhere else. (China, England, Germany, Finnland, e.g.) The standard of living is wonderful but is not enough without a social circle. If it takes longer to build, as mentioned above, then I will have lost my mind beforehand. :) Just kidding. As for leaving, believe me, I would if I could. We have a case of terminal illness in the family and we cannot leave for personal reasons. Of course we are extremely happy that we are in Switzerland and that the healthcare is so much better than in other European countries. So not all is bad! Actually there are a lot of positives in living here.
I see the forum as a place to vent and it helps (me), it really does. :) I know that many of my points are valid even though I do tend to exaggerate. Of course I will poke fun at you if you say that I am imagining things. Because I am not. I guess I am just disapointed. I was expecting the Swiss to be an enlightened, tolerant, free-thinking people. (e.g. When living in Germany I never heard a bad word about the Swiss - but vice versa the Swiss have huge problems with Germans...what is that about???) I am a very direct person who speaks his mind most of the time. I have made the experience that this is somewhat frowned upon in the Swiss society. I wasn't expecting that. I suppose I have to lower my expections. All in all Switzerland is a great (and beautiful) place. So to all o' you out there: Lower your expectations and you wont be disapointed....at least I'm not bitter. :DTime
Postado por Jacek C em Suiça forum
Give it time as the Swiss prefer to know and trust you before you can come their friend, but when you are you stay for ever. But you still have many other nationalities, which you can meet and get together :)
Hello
Postado por Roger B em Suiça forum
Guess that's right for someone from Mauritius... Majority Hindu, isn't it?
The (somewhat funny) conversation of yours about Switzerland and whether this place is friendly towards others kind of drag me back into this. As a native Swiss, I can't help but see some merit in both points of view.
If you are constantly complaining, well, maybe it'd be a better choice to rest your case and settle somewhere new. I guess as foreigner you won't be able to change the Swiss, constant complaint about their reserved, awkward and "xenophobic" nature won't be of much help in this endeavour either... so why bother staying here? (that would be Maria's point)
Which brings me to Daniel's point. The Swiss are an utterly complicated, utterly reserved people. There are a lot of "hidden" customs of sorts (i.e. things people just expect from you or what they expect you not to do) you won't get to know except if you act against them. Worse to this, it even depends on where in Switzerland you are (that's sth even I had to learn - Switzerland is complex).
So while we are rather reserved, keen on privacy and therefore often perceived as cold, the "nativist" part, though certainly present from time being, has taken a notable uptick during the last couple of years (by the way, I think rather then xenophobic I'd rather see the tendencies as "nativist"... might be semantics of sort, but I think it shows better where the issue has its roots). Though, this needs to be put into context and judged what is happening around Europe, I think this is not an isolated phenomenon (or else see the success of right wing / nativist parties such as the Front National, Vlaams-Belang, Popolo della liberta, BNP, PVV). As I have put forth at another stage, I perceive our "nativists" to be rather modest in their views compared to some of the examples just mentioned but showings for them is more imminent as we get to vote far more often than anyone else in Europe (think of voting at least 4-times a year).
While "nativism" is something on the rise in Europe, Switzerland might certainly have its own specialty. While the other Europeans are mostly geared towards immigration from outside Europe, the Swiss are, and that might come as a surprise, more concerned about immigration from neighbouring countries. That brings with it a worry about jobs, flats, transportation and culture. If you see the statistics, Switzerland has had a net-immigration of around 360'000 over the last five years (that's roughly 5% of the population), this to a country that has a non-swiss proportion of nearly 20% and an additional 10% of foreign-born Citizens (pushes up the tally to 30% - though for me it's 20%). With these proportions, I don't think it's so surprising there is resentment
The issues have increased mainly because, due to our EU-alignment, we're now part of the EU free-movement of people. That, by the way, is also something I personally don't like. I think the state should at least have a modicum of control about whose settling and looking for work here. To be plain, I'd be very much in favor of altering the current system of no-control to a system akin to the one of Australia. Is it really a good sign for a country if you have colonies of well-earning, well-educated foreigners, living detached from the hosts, not being interested in the said country except for its tax rules and jobs (and not being interested in the culture/politics/heritage of the host country as long as they have their colony)? Is it a good sign if almost each company in Zug sports a CFO from the UK or a CEO from Germany? Are we certain, as companies quickly affirm, that they couldn't find suitable Swiss? Sure, the country profits handsomly fiscally, but it's not always just the economy stupid. If you sense that the people feel threatened, that there is a problem and that unpleasent and ugly opinions are taking hold, politics should act and not just gloss over the, be they justified or not, worries of the population.
The Swiss have a problem with immigration. It's just too much currently, they are affraid people flooding in the country (and 5% over 5 years is very significant) could take away jobs, flats (which is, depending on place, a huge problem) and stretch the infrastructure to the point. Therefore there is a reaction - a sometimes ugly one I might ad. You probably have noticed that I count myself among those worried about the current state. However, I don't hold a grudge against the immigrants themselves, Switzerland offers a lot of opportunity (economic, fiscal, cultural) and I can understand anyone wanting to come here. However what I have a problem with, is that currently the pace of immigration is too much, too many people comming in and a nagging sense of selling your country out. Finally, The politicans don't have the guts to admit that there are problems (except for the right wingers).
That's the way I see it
Lmao
Postado por Daniel L em Suiça forum
LOL....I rest my case...! (Which God Maria? There are SO many Maria.) Bless you Maria for pointing me towards God. :D
What to do with a problem named Mariaaaaaa?
Postado por Daniel L em Suiça forum
Darling Maria,
oh dear oh dear oh dear Maria. Sorry, but I just had a very good long hard laugh at your answer Maria. You obviously have ABsoLUtely NO sense of humour (or irony) Maria. (Something that you share with a LOT of Swiss (and Germans and French and Austrian, etc.), Maria) I am sure that all of my bad experiences and those of the foreigners I know and have met are ALL due to our bad bad attitude Maria. Riiiight.
Actually I CAN tell you to "shut up" Maria!!!! This is the INTERNET Maria!!!Where do you live Maria? In a hole Maria? Do you believe everything you read on the Internet Maria? Sheesh! I can write anything I bloody well please Maria. Thank you very much Maria. If you dont like it...dont read it. :D Maria.
I dont appreciate the last bit in your very defensive answer Maria. Does that mean you wouldn't be my friend here in Switzerland Maria?? I am devastated. :D Maria.
PS: Dont take yourself (or anything on the internet for that matter) so seriously.
Really?
Postado por Daniel L em Suiça forum
Maria darling,
for your Information, the words 'love it or leave it" were NOT invented by LiLu. They are waaaay older!! I happen to think that this is a very arrogant mindset. It solves no problems whatsoever and means that you are not reflective enough to even think about criticism. (or intelligent enough...?) Plus since you have never been to Switzerland and have never experienced any of this first hand, I think you should shut the fuck up. :D ...but that is just my opinion. :p
PS: Have you even ever heard Swiss German? It sounds like a throat disease...not the easiest language to learn...even if you speak normal german.O yes!
Postado por Usuario deletado em Suiça forum
I don't know about the country folk either they racist or not but the young generation in cities are very friendly. May be you have different experiences about Swiss people but I am always finding them as kind and friendly that's why I have few very nice Swiss and foreigner friends in Lausanne and Geneva.