Posted in Portugal forum
This is to continue to talk about racism in Portugal.
1- I've Studied in a couple of countries including Portugal. Many of my Graduated black colleagues in Portugal, born and raised in Portugal, never have been to Africa where suggested to go "back" to work in Africa;
2- In Portugal, the high amount of black Professionals are to be found in health business because THERE they are needed, since the white Portuguese venture themselves in less intelectually depending business. For the rest of the fields, no blacks to be found in high educational level;
3- Black people in Portugal are to be cleaners, constructors and all "lower" related jobs. You are in a way, forbidden to achieve higher goals since once you've done it, you are no longer welcome in the country. This clearly refects the idea that black people are meant to be low;
4- Yes, Portugal is a Classical country...but look what you've become?
5- While the other imperialists have already apologised for colonialism, Portugal doesn't understand why they did it, simply because Portuguese think they did good in Africa;
6- Before Independence, only the numbers of one hand of Africans were graduated. Today, billions are graduated, schools and universities are numerous in Africa and the list goes on with the improvements that were done. Moreover, today, you find a lot of people like me who DECIDED to venture themselves with their own money to study and work in the world. Me being independent to do that is not well known among the Portuguese since they think that I need their approvement to grow further than what they had "planned" for me.
7- Because of my accent, on the phone, I was told I would do good with my International Masters Degree. But once I asked to meet in person with that such important figure, he asked me if I wasn't thinking of going back to Africa. Another episode was when I approached my Professor to ask him to intervene in my favor as to find a suitable job according to my International Masters. I know that my normal Portuguese colleagues aren't as good as I am in languages, aren't as travelled as I am, don't posess a Masters, can't communicate Internationally as me, and having been a good student myself, having this Professor backing me up, I thought my future was going to be soon. It's been almost 6 months, my Professor is silent. I did send him two mails, to which he answered to one. Last week I sent him another one. DEAR FELLOW PORTUGUESE PEOPLE, do you think he will find me something special since he is a very internationally well known figure?
8- It's very common to companies reply as follows: "we are only employing Africans who want to work for us in Africa".
Now, dear world, how do you put this? I know Portuguese are running to Africa to do as good as I want to do in Portugal.
And
posted by Belinda Angelino in Portugal forum
Or because I am an immigrant, I have no right to reivindicate anything. Just accept how things are. I clean or I leave.
I come to your country in the middle of a crisis?
posted by Belinda Angelino in Portugal forum
See? You are another Portuguese who does not want to read what is inconvenient to absorb. Read the whole forum and you will see if I'm talking about the crisis.
The Portuguese nowadays don't go around fighting black people or other races and foreighners, if that's what you understand by racism. It has millions of layers and many Portuguese don't know it.
Where have the black people in Portugal been working since ever? You, like the majority of the Portuguese must believe that black people have no brains to do more than what they are offered to do in Portugal. Oh no, there are some black people working in clothing shops, right? I should be grateful for that!LOL
posted by R P in Portugal forum
I can't believe this. Bashing my country because we are in the middle of a huge crises and the Portuguese themselves can't get a job! She comes to Portugal, in the middle of a huge crises, can't get a job, conclusion: oh, that country is soooooooo racist! Really?
Reply
posted by Deleted user in Portugal forum
Belinda, I dont think you got my message.
"Immigrants deserve a chance to grow and do not send us to our country when we want more than cleaning jobs! Enough!"
The jobs opportunity are driven by the quality and strength of the economy.
Why would an immigrant choose Portugal as a living place for a prospective work career, if we dont have these offers?It seems like you, as i mentioned before, are departing from your own experiences and generalizing to a wider context. Did you ever apply for a high degree job in Portugal? Why didn't they pick you up? What makes you think you were the best candidate?
If you hold a higher educational degree you shouldn't choose Portugal as a career country. We have almost no jobs at all on that level!!!!. Which current crisis? Portugal always lagged behind the front runner economies, portugal was never a country that had offer prospect career opportunities for immigrants. Recently Portugal for some of its immigrants, especially from ex colonies, is perceived as a middle point between the origin and final country (another EU state)And when i mention facts to support your arguments i think on the following indicators.
- Number of portuguese/immigrants with higher/lower educational degrees that are quality and type of employed/unemployed.
Compare the rations. The problem is common independent of races, colour and nationality.Why are you confining a problem which is systematic and representative of the entire residents in Portugal?David
posted by Belinda Angelino in Portugal forum
Facts would be some studies right? No one conducts them. Is this an indication that everything is ok? Would you think that everything was ok with all the Tunisian people because there were never facts nor studies stating the opposite?
The current crisis? Fair excuse, but I am not pointing out the current events but a state of mind. Where in Portugal is the climate normal for black people to work in offices, sitting on a chear appart from being a "secuirita"? Isn't it a principle that no entrance is allowed for black people into office jobs? I, with my Master degree, should be successful at Mcdonalds at all times in Portugal and not because of the crisis.
The fact that a country is in Economic distress should be no excuse to inequalities. The same way that there are jobs as cleaners should exist jobs for black sociologists, professors, engineers. It is still true that Portuguese people think that black people aren't clever enough to achieve such education. Where are the statistics for that? Why should they exist if there is no intention to sort it out?When Ferreita Leite claimed that the country was drawning, she was "bohoed" until she had to renounce to the post. Until recently, Portugal claimed it had money enough to safe its economy, when every day, since ever, Portugal is a country in "crisis". "things are bad" is what I have been hearing since I was little in Portugal. It's a country of no evolution mentality. Yet, I cannot accept this mentality to keep pushing black people to conditions of the slavery times. Immigrants deserve a chance to grow and do not send us to our country when we want more than cleaning jobs! Enough!
Facts and systematic approach of the "problem"
posted by Deleted user in Portugal forum
Hi Belinda,
Coloured and immigrant people in Portugal do have troubles to find a decent job, the same as almost everyone living in Portugal.
You should be careful when stating your arguments, of job discrimination by race or nationality, and based them on reliable data and facts. I haven't seen any facts that confine the problem only to a specific group.
Portugal as a country of a prospective job careers is only true for few employees! Tell me if iam wrong. On previous posts i explained why.
On top of this, a high percentage of empoyment lays at the government level. At this level everyone do suffer from an unequal job selection process, mainly distorted by favours or proximal relationship between the job candidate and someone influencing the decision of who to hire. Portugal does not have institutional mechanims nor regulations for hiring employees. There is no independent body that monitores the selection process and if the ideal candidate was indeed hired.
If you shift to private companies, job opportunities are more equally. It wouldn't be rational to have a HR policy which would have portugueses candidates as the ideal ones, independent of education, life experiences and other conditions influencing the job performance. Would it?David
More...
posted by Belinda Angelino in Portugal forum
And Portugal has always functioned in its own isolated way.
The theories of João and Jack that my point of view is of a discontend minority may apply elsewhere- it's in fact a recurrent argument when critics of this nature flow- but not in Portugal unless you mean "minority" in the sense of social group.There are not a lot of Portuguese studies on racism, since ever. Which is socially strange in itself, especially for a country with a History like Portugal. "Better not see".
There is racism everywhere
posted by Belinda Angelino in Portugal forum
"There is racism everywhere" does not indeed fix the problem. But the problem is that it is not taken as a problem in the first place but rather a right that nationals "claim". It's a necessary residual when it comes to Europeans in their country -not wanting to discuss the American issue.
Although racism is everwhere, it has different faces everywhere. You see black people achieving great careers in France, Engand, America, Holland, Canada but not in Portugal if they don't have a liberal profession to stand on their own. In Portugal, no company hires highly educated black people. The almost inexisted light skinned or mixed "black" people in Portugal who might have been employed by companies, have a secret connection behind, such as belonging to African Families political figures' that give a slight of something big in return. There is no black person hired by their merits in Portugal. "Because he/she is black" is a legitimate excuse to not hire a person in Portugal. It is something that the Portuguese owe and the Africans should understand. It is settled, as if the Portuguese- more than any other coloniser- deserves this differentiation.
Jack Garcia, if you are Portuguese, you are not being honest if deny that black people in Portugal have the same dignity in the labour market as black people in England. It's about aknowledging the qualities and efforts of a person regardless to their skin. If England is also racist towards black skinned labour, it certainly tries to balance it a bit. Not in Portugal because Portugal is really for the white Portuguese and we Africans should know it better.
João Seara, your Brazilian and Ukranian neighbours must certainly have high education and are employed according to their qualifications? Man, we are both Portuguese, don't give me that BS. Ever heard of the term "pretos do Leste" = "Eastern blacks"- these are the Eastern Europens. Now, not to try to say that each immigrant should be spared from any "joking" names, but this one is quite flagrant.
The Portuguese are patient towards their Governments? No, they don't understand it, actually. If they did, they would feel rage enough to come out of their comfort zone and fight for somethiing. There is a terrible brainwashing of the Portuguese media and government that the Portuguese people take it as it is. They have no idea they can do something about it. It's all about "what God wil" in Portugal. They look at the other countries moving on, growing and they believe that it lies on their lucky genes. "They" are who they are and "we" are who we are. That's how the Portuguese mentality is. How to change that? By getting out of their depressing sofas. Why did they make themselves zombies? Better keep the clothes clean? How do you get things better if you don't want to dirty your hands?
Jack, you must be British most of the time. You are certainly well served. Ever had to fight for a job in Portugal?
Portugal
posted by jack garcia in Portugal forum
I certainly never construed anything 'rude' in your comments, João - quite the contrary. This lampooning of Portugal and her people is ill-founded and clearly the mischievous ramblings of a malcontent. It is highly unlikely that any of these detrimental comments towards Portugal are founded on any sociological evaluation. Were they to be so, then the findings would show the Portuguese struggling for survival in a country which most her own politicians abuse. The Portuguese have heard many 'fine' speeches concerning the welfare of Portugal and are constantly betrayed by their government and the candidates of the government. The people are merely there to pay taxes and should they wish any individual assistance for their own individual welfare, they are beset by the most horrendous of bureaucracy which complicates their lives even further.
On the whole, the Portuguese warrant a great deal of admiration for their tenacity to endure needlessly imposed hardships AND continuing to maintain their dignity, their humour and their overwhelming hospitality to we immigrants who live within her country.Finally, this is a country which still maintains a low level of violence. The individual Portuguese character (and personality) is not one which promotes violence.
Colour prejudice and Racism.
posted by jack garcia in Portugal forum
These two categories of social and psychological dysfunction must be perceived as separate and distinct from each other. Colour prejudice is not racism.
Colour prejudice may, indeed (And, very often, does) lead on to racism and racist attitudes.
Certainly, these dysfunctions merit further study for anyone interested in social and psychological behaviour patterns.