게시된 위치 포르투갈 공개토론
This is to continue to talk about racism in Portugal.
1- I've Studied in a couple of countries including Portugal. Many of my Graduated black colleagues in Portugal, born and raised in Portugal, never have been to Africa where suggested to go "back" to work in Africa;
2- In Portugal, the high amount of black Professionals are to be found in health business because THERE they are needed, since the white Portuguese venture themselves in less intelectually depending business. For the rest of the fields, no blacks to be found in high educational level;
3- Black people in Portugal are to be cleaners, constructors and all "lower" related jobs. You are in a way, forbidden to achieve higher goals since once you've done it, you are no longer welcome in the country. This clearly refects the idea that black people are meant to be low;
4- Yes, Portugal is a Classical country...but look what you've become?
5- While the other imperialists have already apologised for colonialism, Portugal doesn't understand why they did it, simply because Portuguese think they did good in Africa;
6- Before Independence, only the numbers of one hand of Africans were graduated. Today, billions are graduated, schools and universities are numerous in Africa and the list goes on with the improvements that were done. Moreover, today, you find a lot of people like me who DECIDED to venture themselves with their own money to study and work in the world. Me being independent to do that is not well known among the Portuguese since they think that I need their approvement to grow further than what they had "planned" for me.
7- Because of my accent, on the phone, I was told I would do good with my International Masters Degree. But once I asked to meet in person with that such important figure, he asked me if I wasn't thinking of going back to Africa. Another episode was when I approached my Professor to ask him to intervene in my favor as to find a suitable job according to my International Masters. I know that my normal Portuguese colleagues aren't as good as I am in languages, aren't as travelled as I am, don't posess a Masters, can't communicate Internationally as me, and having been a good student myself, having this Professor backing me up, I thought my future was going to be soon. It's been almost 6 months, my Professor is silent. I did send him two mails, to which he answered to one. Last week I sent him another one. DEAR FELLOW PORTUGUESE PEOPLE, do you think he will find me something special since he is a very internationally well known figure?
8- It's very common to companies reply as follows: "we are only employing Africans who want to work for us in Africa".
Now, dear world, how do you put this? I know Portuguese are running to Africa to do as good as I want to do in Portugal.
"Colour prejudice" IS racism
게시한 사람 삭제된 사용자 속 포르투갈 공개토론
Any time a person is prejudiced against another on the account of SKIN COLOR it is racism. I don't know why you're fighting the connotation; it's obvious that racism exists there and everywhere else; the herd mentality is all-pervasive. The problem with "racism" is that it's so hard to define when things like nationalism, local pride, economics, and politics all get thrown into the mix. As the incredibly rude João Pedro Seara mentioned, some of it might be just a hatred for "uncontrolled influx" of immigrants, but oftentimes the attitudes are MIXED, there's racism (seeing other people as "them," as "different" (in a bad way) because of their skin color) plus real concerns. What's the best way to defeat those attitudes? Acknowledge that they exist and work against them. Here in the United States if someone were to say "Why don't you go back to Africa?" they would have gotten sued and/or fired. We have such a bad history of blatant racism here (inherited from our European ancestors and kept around because of economics) that we often push too far the other way and allow racist attitudes to exist in black, hispanic, asian, whatever, cultures. It's so bad that to call out a black person here on their racist attitude is to get branded a racist yourself. "Racism" is such a monolithic idea that things like genocidal tendencies, backwards morals, and uncomfortable events in history, are swept under the rug as long as you have a "racist" to point to. I had a class here at Temple University called "Race and Diversity in America" that basically condemned European (and the descended American) cultures for their genocide/enslavement of African and Native cultures, but said nothing of the fact that it was the Africans that sold each other into that slavery, and of the Natives that also had very racist attitudes towards the "dirty" Spanish and Portuguese. So basically I understand the mindset of someone that wants to rage against the accusation of racism - on the one hand it's so meaningless because of numerous cultural factors (and tends to only be accounted for if you're white), on the other hand it's so REAL and obviously exists that it's extremely uncomfortable to admit. Saying that "racism exists everywhere!" doesn't fix the problem. Trying to justify colonialism and pretending like there's a reason to be upset at the colonized people (for rebelling and killing like the colonizers did) is wrong. Yelling at someone because of an obvious problem and telling them to "shut your(their) mouth" is horribly rude. Again, the best way to defeat the racist, or incredibly nationalistic, attitude is to acknowledge it and move on. Finding similarities is so much better.
Portugal.
게시한 사람 jack garcia 속 포르투갈 공개토론
Referring to the Portuguese people as racist is wholly inaccurate. Yes, there is racism, here, of course - as everywhere. However, you appear to be referring to 'colour prejudice', not racism. Even though these two fundamental social issues exist here- and, elsewhere, they most certainly are not defining qualities of the Portuguese. Portugal, itself, is a country deeply troubled by social dysfunction spawned by poor governmental policies. These policies affect all the inhabitants, here, regardless of colour, creed or race.
farnandas
게시한 사람 farnandas456 farnandas456 속 포르투갈 공개토론
You make it sound like stuff like this only happens in Portugal When Its quite common just about everywhere. Im too lazy to go back and check, but It May you who have Also Been Stated That was not the bad the Spain Portugal. travel a>
Joao Pedro
게시한 사람 Belinda Angelino 속 포르투갈 공개토론
So you have good friends who are in the Army-Afghanistan and another one in fashion industry. Perhaps some modelling or singing? You don't see any pattern there, do you?
This thread is about highly qualified brains, without any connection to recreational activities nor wars. I'm referring to Engineers, Economists, Lawyers, etc being able to be employed by Portuguese companies. That doesn't happen, my friend.
Nowadays, it is possible to suddenly see some black executives walking around the area of Lisbon. Those are actually Angolans who go for business purposes or simply are taken in for short internships in Companies that have branches in Angola. A quick passage of black qualified people is what you see in Lisbon, unless they have liberal professions, whereby they are able to stand for themselves. No Portuguese company takes black people for contracts.
The Portuguese still hold its pride of a coloniaistl. It seems to still need that status.They need to make sure that black people in Portugal are in a low position by not allowing them to succeed. Is there anything like achieving your dreams in Portugal, as for growing professionally and be embraced for self-qualifications without any sort of "cunha" in Portugal? NO! How about the human rights of this limitation. If you don't allow people to grow, if even with your diploma, you cannot get a job, let alone succeed...what is this for human rights?You claim that wherever you go, you will always find racism. True. But, there are some Portuguese abroad working on great positions in private companies aren't there? A mean, really prominent people who were taken in because of their merits.
In Portugal, one should assume that a black person is unable to perform in high positions, right?
And how about statistics some Portuguese "secretly" write to Brussels claiming that the reason why there are no black people in high positions in Portugal is because they rarely exist, because they tend to drop school before University? Do you know how many black Portuguese or Immigrants have even PHD are continuously denied entrance for a job?
Portugal is not a market economy, the rules are not those of free market, of meritocracy nor even a sample of it. Portugal is a place where first comes race, then comes afinity. You need to have afinity with the employer in order to get a job, to succeed...and you João, know that. You are simply defending Portugal out of emptiness. You probably saw more efficient markets to what concerns employment and just are trying to believe Portugal is the same. I know the feeling. I have been travelling around for years now. Whenever I talk to people, I tend to think that I am representative of my birth country, when in fact, I have been influenced by other cultures since ever.
I'm not sure you are highly educated but if you are, have been able to work in your field abroad, then decided to go back to Portugal, you know that there is racism in your company, that black people have their place at the back door and that fact actually puts you in a higher position even though you could have been just a regular guy abroad. That feeling of superiority is something that the Portuguese do not seem to want to leave behind in respect to black people. And you know what's the excuse when people like me point out how this is wrong? The Portuguese respond that it is not our country so we should accept how we are treated: as servers and cleaners. That's the only treatment you have to offer. Did you know that this excuse was used in the 60 in the UK? But then, every country has something lke art. 13 of the Portuguese Constitution. No, you should not discriminate in whatever manner.About the guettos that are allowed to grow in Portugal, well, by definition, guettos are build as a consequence of marginalization. If you segregate people, not only they need means to survive but they always get frustrated as soon as they realise they are outcasts of the society, pure marginals. If you were the outcast in your family or any community you were involved with, you'd naturally become a rebellious unless you had any kind of hope. The only hope those people living in Lisbon guettos have is to be able to work for McDonalds.
Yes, Portugal needs more money right now. How about reducing the stupid bureacracy so it becomes as attractive as Bulgaria? Also here, the Portuguese need to NOT LET GO of the "who is in charge?" mentality. Blocking everything possible, oppressing everybody, pretending that it needs courage to be happy in this world.
Deleted Post?
게시한 사람 삭제된 사용자 속 포르투갈 공개토론
I posted a long reply to this that was neither mean spirited nor against any of the other the posting guidelines and yet...it was deleted. Thanks Portugal forum! Much appreciated.
No worries...
Its OK Joao Pedro.
I have my moments too where I talk without thinking (or without getting the full picture) so no hard feelings. :)
And at the moment Portuguese people have much more serious things to deal with than this topic. We need to all stick together and kick the parisitic IMF out of the country or there will be no jobs, period!
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Im sorry but the problem is not on my end but rather the English you chose to use in order to make your analogy as I am not the only one who misunderstood you, here. To say that people run away is implying something negative because they wanted a better life for their children. And since I am first generation Portuguese-American/Canadian (born in one, raised in the other) I take offence as my parents left the Azores because they wanted a better life for their children but never forgot their family back home. I dont think my parents even realized sometimes that they were in another country as we all went to Portuguese school on Saturdays and attended a Portuguese church. And I have been to visit family in Portugal many times. Is that enough cred for you?
I do know what you mean about annoying people of Portuguese background, though. My older brother is one of those. When we were teenagers, he used to yell at me for talking to him in Portuguese outside of the house. Only English or French for him. I had to laugh at him when he wore a Portuguese National team jersey a couple of years ago....
As for the racism issue. I said all I had to say a few posts ago. I dont think I need to elaborate any further. Every country has its good and bad points but I think stressing that Portugal is the worst for racism is a bit much and full of melodrama. We are probably some of the most mixed people on earth. Racism is stupid and incredibely pointless if you are Portuguese. :)
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게시한 사람 삭제된 사용자 속 포르투갈 공개토론
Joao
I guess Susie just wanted to leave clear that people who emigrate are in general looking to improve their living conditions. Sometimes the information we would like to share is misinterpreted by the reader. In this case I also interpreted as all portuguese emigrants are runners from their country. But you have clear it up correctly.
I will add my thoughts on two of the aspects discussed by you.
1) Why do you say that in Germany one is more likely to be discriminated than in Portugal? Do you consider a type of discrimination the experience of being asked to present your ID card while your colleague wasn't?
2) Why do you carry such a negative feeling/opinion on the "way" Portuguese emigrants typically behave?About 1): I am now living in Germany and so far i feel that people have a really good sense of community. Of course its hard to generalize from one to many but at least this is what i ve perceived for the time being. I totally disagree that the experience you had, being asked for the ID, is a case of discrimination (Although you don't mention this situation as being a type of discrimination, its not clear then why you add it to your argument). At most i see it as a case of selective choice. In portugal you barely see someone being asked for its ID. In germany you have more persons in charge of this task. Also if they are looking to control illegal immigration wouldnt it make sense if they ask the ID to someone who shows no evidence (which ever it might be) of an illegal person? Also the same situation happened a lot while i was in Italy. I know its not comfortable to be always asked for the ID, because of visual assumptions, wile the ones who surround you aren't. But after some thoughts on the topic i end up understanding...
About 2): I am sorry to hear that you re not comfortable with the way emigrants behave. I see this behaviour as the result of fewer opportunities to become educated together with (partilly) a way of social affirmation. My view is that i don't judge emigrants for not being educated or for behaving very differently from non-emigrants. I tend to understand why this happens and i accept. At most i blame them, but i understand why they behave like that. I dont want to go into philosophical questions here, you should also try to understand like i do and avoid a negative sentiment towards those specific types of emigrants, that later on, this sentiment may lead to discrimination forms.
So sanctimonious...
Joa Pedro, please get off your soap box. The arrogance is really annoying. Portuguese people who left during Salazar's reign didnt RUN AWAY, many took the oppurtunity to leave in order to offer a better life to their family by working abroad and either sending money home or working overseas for a few years and then returning to Portugal (as two of my Uncles had done). My apologies to you for all the people who didnt just stay and die of starvation. How childish you are.
Castro
게시한 사람 Belinda Angelino 속 포르투갈 공개토론
And no, I'm not talking about those who posses double nationality in Africa but native Portuguese who are nothing but Portuguese and get good jobs there.