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Is it just me or is it really hard to find some people in Switzerland who are willing to make good friends with you (especially to foreigners)??
I've been there for only 6 months and I heard you need at least 3 months to completely settle down there so maybe I've been there just too short...what do you think?
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To Roger B with respect
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The fact that racism is widespread in Switzerland doesn't mean that all the Swiss people are racist! Yet the racist attitude of those who are racist and xenophobic (more than half of that populations according to a study, which was conducted by Geneva University) Is already enough to create fuss and discomfort to the foreigners living in Switzerland, especially for some ethnic groups constantly targeted!
it's really tiring to here and read that a foreigner did this an other one did that, unemployment is due to foreigners taking the jobs of Swiss, the academic level is dropping in the Swiss universities because of the increasing number of foreigners and so on... I want to say stop enough is enough! I feel tired of reading and hearing the same things again and again.
Racism is a reality in Switzerland and no one can deny it, and the most scaring thing is that most of the time it's hidden! Some people apparently open minded and cheerful will turn out to be racist, xenophobic and intolerant. To me this is the worst, I hate hypocritical attitudes and people! I had many bad experiences of this kind and of course it's regrettable!
Sometimes racism is direct and awful! I joined the fire department as a volunteer a few years ago, and I noticed that there was a group of retired firemen who were strongly opposed the fact that foreigners (and ladies!!!) could join the "Swiss" fire department and they didn't mind to say it out from time to time. They always managed to avoid the foreigners so that they didn't need handshake them... but when I think deeply I feel sorry for those people because they are definitely trapped in their ignorance and they are hopeless, poor them!
All people around me consider me as a perfectly integrated person, yet the most amazing part of the story is that racists will target integrated people or those who try to be, because most of the time they will not target those who are not as they are afraid of them!!! This attitude to me is really coward.
why ???
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Dear Jim
thank you for your reply and i am not feel bad , and whene i was in switzerland they are thinking i am italian man , becuasse i look like italian people ,and some of them interessting whene they know i am a arabic musilam man , they worry even to speaking with me ...
i dont know why tell me , i cant guess why ???Switzerland & Racism
Δημοσιεύτηκε από Roger B σε φόρουμ Ελβετία
Look guys, as you know by now, I'm not an apologist for racism in Switzerland. It does exist, it's not good. I'm also not stating that it was easy making friends in Switzerland, for this, the comments in this forum are just too obvious.
However, I once again will try to put some of your criticism into the context of a Swiss liberal and try to throw in some arguments you might not have thought of yet.
First about Swiss coolness, well, I say it again guys, don't think that such behaviour is exclusively geared against foreigners. The Swiss are a seclusive and reserved people. In a way, our culture is very geared towards allowing for privacy (how else do you think we became famous for our banking services - wasn't that exploiting exacetly this character trait?). It might not offer any solace to you, but I can tell you that there is a whole lot of Swiss feeling the same way, having the same problem. Only difference tough, is that usually the Swiss are less restrained by language. Something you have to keep in mind is that for English-only speakers it's even tougher. English is taught in schools these days but only since a relatively short period of time. Today, people from the mid-twenties bracket on probably speak a "sub-optimal" level of English, except if they were at college (which is a minority, given our system of professional education). Ads just another layer of complexity to it. I personally had some business encounters or know some friends, that literally lock up when they are confronted with someone speaking English or French because they fear being ridiculed for their language skill or, they possess only such a limited level of English so that the topics they can talk about are very limited.
Second about racism, well, first and foremost it's probably something you can easily find anywhere in Europe these days. It's a sad truth that problems of immigration have been glossed over for too long, that they have not been adressed properly by the "normal" parties so that now we observe a back-lash of sorts. For too long, political correctness has prevented any meaningful and honest debate about the topic. But again, this is nothing uniquely reserved to Switzerland, how else would you explain the successes of the Flams Belang in Belgium, Geert Wilders' Party in the Netherlands, the Front National of France or the BNP in the UK? How else to explain the treatment of Roma/Sinti in France or Italy? Or Tilo Sarazin with his thesis in Germany? The difference is though, that measured by these examples our SVP is actually quite tame (not so the SD) and not a single topic party (as said somewhere above, it's lots of grayscales). The SVP is genuinely conservative, with a conservative agenda not so different from those of the conservative wing of the GOP, Tea Party or even the Torries. Furthermore, I think the reason why they became popular in the first place was not necessarily the immigration issue but the discussion about entering the EU or not (was practically the only party to be against such an endeavor). The thing is that with their provocative attitude, they managed to get themselves a reputation as racist party on par with the FN or Geert Wilders. Their provocative attitude and campaigns were also the sole thing you could hear about them outside Switzerland. There are many Swiss that consider them to be racist (especially from the left), but to be honest with you guys, I don't share this characterization. As a person thoroughly opposed to the SVP/UDC and knowing their program, I still don't think their characterization as a racist party is appropriate. While their views on some topics might be extrem and provocative, basing the judgment or characterization of a party only on, this would go too far. So Karim, I think citing articles with the subject of racism in Switzerland to proove that we, as a whole people, are genuinely racist, is absolutely unfair. Especially if one can repet this excercise for the UK, the US, France or any other country on this planet.
Now, let me explore the immigration topic somewhat more. We have to keep in mind that (in 2009) roughtly 22% of the population living in Switzerland was not-Swiss, i.e. foreign non-naturalized (not counting temporary working permits etc. this would levy up the number to 35% for 2006). To compare that, in the US its 7% in the UK 10.6%. So the impact on a relatively small, relatively densely populated country like Switzerland naturally is higher. Now, what's it all about blaming "Jugos". Well, first we took in a lot of refugees during the Balkan Wars from Albanians to Serbs. And second, many of those remained in Switzerland, were allowed to bring in family, raised children and settled definetively. The truth about the situation is that politics turned a blind eye for too long to the problems boiling up. This is exactely a situation where well meaning political correctness was detering real and fair solutions. Violent behaviour was and is common place among their youth, something that actually pops up in statistics. The sole difference between now and back in the 90's is that today the media attention is skewed towards exposing youth violance instead of glossing it over (as in the 90's). To make it clear, I'm not judging yet where such aggressivenes comes from. Many Swiss entirely blame it on them, saying they were offered all oportunities in terms of health care, education and social security. While you can probably say that the "drive to integrate" amongst the Balkan population was low (due to high numbers and local concentration), the Swiss attitude started to become negative and with that, people started to, in fact, discriminate. Now that this is ingrained in the people on both sides, it's very hard to get out. I really try to be open and fair, but still I get a bad feeling whenever crossing some Balkan youth late at night at a train station. I know it's wrong but I have witnessed too many things to the other side to shake it off easily (and therefore I'm contributing to the overall picture).
And the general experience with the Balkan immigration, I'd say, also influenced the general attituted towards foreigners. As did the recent wave of immigration through the agreements with the EU. While this last phenomenon might be economically useful, it still leaves many Swiss with a certain anxiousnes. If you walk throu Zurich and every second person you meet is a German, you might understand what causes that anxiousnes. The unease is not purely cultural (as with the Balkanese) it is more economic. People fear that they're only here to take their jobs away. But again, pointing to discussions in the US or other European countries, that's not something exclusive to Switzerland.
So why is this unease far easier to detect in Switzerland than elsewhere in Europe? Blame the political system. Unlike in any other European country or by extension the US (except for some of its states), people in Switzerland have a direct say and this not just through elections every four to five years. Here, social-democratic voters can vote social-democratic at the elections but still vote in favor of the extradition initiative (which, judging from the polls, many will do). And this then gives the media a story to talk about. Direct Democracy means a direct feedback about how people feel. Sometimes, as probably will be in the case of the upcoming extradition-initiative or as has happened with the anti-minaret initiative, the outcome is ugly. But in the UK, France or any other European nation, people simply would not have the opportunity to vote on such a thing. For the considerable merits the system brings, it also inherits some risks.
This was a long answer, I think I could even expand it. The main point I wanted to bring forward: Yes, there is racism in Switzerland, yes, there is a certain unease with immigration and Yes, the Swiss are very bullish on privacy. But guys, look around, sadly that is not something exclusive to Switzerland (except for the privacy thing). It might not offer you solace, but these kinds of tendencies are visible througout the western world. And observing these trends, it really bugs me if you portray Switzerland as proto-racist hell on earth as it probably would bug you if I walked around depicting Switzerland as the motherland of happyness and tolerance. The world is too complex a thing to be seen in black and white. But the overall trend in the Western World deeply worries me.
We need to do something against it. What do I do? Well, while I certainly cherish my privacy as much as do other Swiss, I try to be as open to foreigners as possible. I try to include people at my work place or my community, try to be open for conversations (you might have noticed that) and for a beer after work (or during it, depending on occasion :-)...
Maybe one last tip, learn something about our history, politics and culture. Depending on occasion, it makes quite an impression and flatters us (at least me) if we notice that someone actually has dug into those topics and want to know something about us.
A piece of news from World Radio Switzerland
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http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/wrsnews/zurich-official-ousted
-for-racist-comments.shtml?21602Zurich official ousted for racist comments
A politician in the canton of Zurich has been removed from office for racist comments.
Urs Wagner was the president of the muncipial parliament of Opfikon, but the Zurich cantonal parliament dismissed him following racist comments he made in his Swiss National Day speech on August 1.
Wagner said that in order to keep “Switzerland’s culture of white men” it “must refuse the establishment of non-whites in the European territory.”
After his party, the Liberal Greens, tried in vain to extract a formal apology and his resignation, the Zurich government fired him.
Wagner will, however, remain on Zurich’s cantonal parliament.
Fear of foreigners is one of the reasons...
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Reported by Swiss media and NGO
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Council_of_Europe_attac
ks_racism_in_Switzerland.html?cid=9576http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Racial_discriminati
on_invades_all_areas_of_life.html?cid=987934http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Migrants_get_bad_pr
ess_in_the_media.html?cid=993686http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Foreigners_want_to_
be_able_to_Swissify_names.html?cid=32412http://www.humanrights.ch/home/en/Switzerland/Human-Rights-i
n-Internal-Affairs/Racism/Studies/idcatart_6544-content.html
?zur=853http://www.ekr.admin.ch/aktuell/index.html?lang=en
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/index/UN_envoy_calls_racism_in_S
witzerland_a_reality.html?cid=246798
@ alexander, roger and just in general
Δημοσιεύτηκε από canuck s σε φόρουμ Ελβετία
To Alexander,
Looks like someone is still in his honeymoon period and needs to take the rose coloured glasses off :P Before moving to Switzerland I spent 3 months here. And, what do you know, I LOVED IT! The scenery was beautiful, the towns were quaint, the nearness of everything astounded me, the people were friendly to me. Now all of these things remain unchanged and true today except for one. Guess which one?
I'm not trying to be purposely rude against the swiss. Because when I first came, I was SO excited to be here, to make a new start, to build up a new life with my Swiss husband. I did not come from a war torn country or a country where I worse off. I had it really good in Canada. It was only AFTER i moved here that the problems began. And these problems remain today. And i think i know why. I accept Rogers defense on the "reserved xenophobes" and I commend his efforts to uphold his people. (Kudo's to you, because I know it's hard when everyone is making fun/insulting your country, the Swiss love to make fun of the "ami accent" ;D )
But I think it goes deeper than that. I'll give an example. Last weekend I was at my husband's company's excursion (geschäfts ausflug) where we visited MR. Setz in the Setz museum. Mr. Setz talked in great length about his company, and even more about politics. He blamed all of Switzerlands problems on the Ausländer. ANd every single one of the people from the company nodded and ate that shit up. Whenever I speak with swiss, they are always blaming foreigerns, at the moment they especially love to blame the "Jugos" I just had a conversation with a swiss about road rage, and he said that only Jugos have road rage, not swiss people. He also told me that car insurance is based partially on race (herkunft) and that Jugos have to pay higher rates. I asked him if he thought this was discrimination, and he said yes, but they use statistics to sugar coat it so that it doesnt look like racism. So he admitted to it, but the old adage is, no one gives a shit as long as it's not happening to themselves.
I wonder how this will ever change if more Swiss don't make an effort to make foreigerns feel welcome, especially the ones that are trying to integrate. The ones (like me, who constantly get complimented on how good my germand (high and swiss) is considering that I've only been here for two years) If all the Swiss constantly hear is foreigerns are shit, they will pass this attitude around. Of course I can't say that we foreigerns are any better, when all we constantly do is talk about how much Switzerland sucks. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken.
So for the Swiss, I emplore you, break the fuck out of the bünzli mentality, take a cool foreigner by the hand and say, let me show you how wonderful switzerland can REALLY be. And when you talk with your swiss friends, tell them about your foreigner friend and if there is something positive to say, SAY it! Because not all foreigners are assholes, just like not all Swiss are assholes. I hope that you, Roger, are doing your part, and not only in defending Switzerland.
In Canada I had lot's of Russian friends, they turned out to be really good people. I made an effort to spend time with them. Here I managed to make 2 swiss friends of my own accord (not through my husbands circle) and the 2 of them don't even hang out with me or write me, unless as a last resort and all their swiss friends are busy. I feel this is because I told them the truth about how i am feeling about living here, but that i said i was looking for exceptions to the rule. Now i will have to pay for being honest because it doesn't look like any swiss person wants to be an exception and have fun with a foreigner.
Anyways enough of a long blame. I kinda wanted to bring the conversation back to the difficulty in making friends, and not just racism in general, which is only a small part of the problem.
If there are any cool Swiss girls that want to hang out and prove to me that they are awesome, let me know :D
It would be a shame for me to have to go back to Canada and say the majority of you truly do suck. Of course, that wouldn't bother you swiss one bit, just one less forgeigner to complain about.
:)
Life in Switzerland
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I agree with most of the people in this forum that it's very difficult to be integrated in the Swiss society!
I am a mixed person and physically I look European, yet I experienced a lot of discrimination because of my name especially when applying for jobs, flats etc...
I can say that Swiss tend to be more and more racist and xenophobic, especially with the recent economic crises. They always blame foreigners for all their problems and it's getting worse and worse!
Getting on with people is very difficult, even some of the neighbors will hardly greet you sometimes! Some of them will ignore you if they see you in the street and this is a national sport here!!! I don't understand why, but it's like that! Once a neighbor even covered her face in order to avoid greeting my wife and me!!!
I managed to make a few good friends here but most of them are foreigners, they also share the same feelings as most of the people in this forum.
I have been living here for 18 years and after sometimes I started to think that I had myself psychological problems! Finally when I read many posts in this forum (and other forums) I noticed that many people had the same feeling as I do have...
Well I planned to quit definitely this country in near future and I think it's the best thing to do as I strongly believe that nothing will change in Switzerland especially regarding the mentality of the people... This country is not so international and multicultural as it claims to be, for those who are planning to come and live here please think it twice as you may regret afterwards!!!
About Switzerland
Δημοσιεύτηκε από Jim Jackson σε φόρουμ Ελβετία
Dear Saleh, do not feel bad. This is exactely what we are trying to experess here, the swiss do not like anybody who is different. They will discriminate about your color , religion and even your look. You should see the poor black africans how they are treated!! They can not get jobs they qualify for! They are chased by racist police whenever they move. They are treated worst than animals. I heard that suiss jails are full of foreigners and mainly muslims, can you guess why?
Goodevening Maria and Everyone,
Δημοσιεύτηκε από Διαγραμμένος χρήστης σε φόρουμ Ελβετία
i read almost all the comments before too
you are right about switzerland , i visited it 3 times and i sent my CV 10000 to many companies , even i went there to searching a work by my self , i was looking for new life there , i love this country so much as same to my country , but many swiss people not accept egyptian muslim man have High University degree to live there , i met many problems there ,and i still would leving there for much more , i will say again i love this country and i am not upset from people who dont even accept new friend from Egypt, the famous Land ancient , and the Great pyramid and Great Sphinx , The Nile Valley , Sahara Desert , over around 4000 years BC
Thanks to all
Salehabout switzerland
Δημοσιεύτηκε από Maria Vonte σε φόρουμ Ελβετία
goodmorning everyone,
i have read almost all the comments that have been written before, i am so diassappointed reading all these about Switzerland. I visited Switzerland last year in October and i have to say that when i came back to Greece i started sending CV there. Imagine how much i liked there!! Ok i know my experience is very small, i stayed there inly for one week, but i dodn't see anyone writing about how beautiful country is. With all the trees the forests the rivers, it was unbelieiveable, i came back home with almost 600 photos. Here in Greece specificlly in Athens life is so misery when you need to work. Ok we have the sun we have the sea and we have the night life but that's it. Switzerland is really beautiful and people that happened to meet where all very friendly. Why all these bad comments about Switzerland?
Once again i repeat i stayed only for one week
But still i woud consider leving there for much more