Pubblicato in Svizzera forum
Is it just me or is it really hard to find some people in Switzerland who are willing to make good friends with you (especially to foreigners)??
I've been there for only 6 months and I heard you need at least 3 months to completely settle down there so maybe I've been there just too short...what do you think?
Utente eliminato
Can't agree
pubblicato da Roger B in Svizzera forum
Hi basanta,
Let's not stereotype here. I think attributing or extrapolating any of the Swiss behaviour to other Europeans might not work. What I especially don't like though, is saying that it is the result of some "superiority complex", I can't help it, but that is just plain wrong and frought with many wrong assumptions (what's that about secrecy to maintain anyway? If that's an allusion to our banks, well let me just say that the Swiss economy has much more to offer than just that, and that we do not all work at or subjugate our life to the workings of the Paradeplatz).
And once again I want to re-itaret that in the Swiss case (I don't comment the others, as I do not know their cases to well and as said before, I do not like such generalizations), it's not geared against foreigners but a phenomenon that occurs among Swiss as well. What you call close minded is just a very cautious and slow approach. That the Swiss have a high esteem for privacy and a "hands-off-approach" to others might also be a reason why many celebrities come to live here (at least that's what they say, although I believe paying only a fraction of taxes might help big-time as well ;-). Why we are so reserved probably is more rooted in our history as a small, poor (yeah, once upon a time Switzerland was really the poor house of Europe), most of the time different and over large periods of time threatened country, than out of any sense of superiority.
The argument that we like to live in our "own groups" is betrayed by the fact that a large proportion of the general population is either foreign born or second generation (it's roughly between 20 and 25% in a country of 7.5 million), with many having perfectly blended in and added to the Swiss society (for instance the significant population with Italian, Portuguese or Spanish roots, to stay somewhat closer to home, or the not insignificant Lanka-Tamil population - even the somewhat bad-publicity prone Balkan population is ever more integrated). If we had a superiority complex and liked to stay in "our group", why would we naturalize these people and have our society "spoiled" by them? Truth of the matter is that Switzerland, through its political system and its location in the middle of Western Europe has attracted foreigners ever since the economic and political circumstances allowed for such movements (I would say probably in and around the early 17th century).
Furthermore, as already written before, I think the term "own group" is highly problematic as it assigns people to have only one single identity. To keep with Amartya Sen and his book "Identity and Violence", we are however shifting these depending on context and topics. Granted, there are currently "sons of the soil" sentiments on the rise in Switzerland (there were always such sentiments, as in many other parts of the world - be it Arizona or Maharashtra- but over the last few years they've taken up some speed which might be the result of globalization and the above invoked significant percentage of foreign residents), that want to define what it means to be "Swiss". However, liberals as me, try our best to keep our resistance against such gross and unhelpful categorizations (sometimes I feel that in the eyes of the people's party one is only Swiss if one goes to the "Älplerfest", likes "Fahnenschwingen" and "Alphorn" ).
Such, surging and abating waves of xenophobia notwithstanding, I think Switzerland is still a country where the software of people counts more than their hardware. I have friends with Cambodian, Italian, Spanish, Turkish and Indian roots, all accepted and integrated without having to assimilate blindly into Swiss culture. I myself am the product of past immigration, as are many fellow Swiss.
So no, definetly, I don't think people in Switzerland are the way the are because of any superiority complexes or an urge to stay within the group. There might be those that are the way you describe them, but I think one can find such close-minded groups in every society and nation on this planet if one looks close enough (be it the "Swiss Democrats", the modern day "Minutemen" or the Maharashtra "Shiv Sena" ).
german speaker
pubblicato da basanta bora in Svizzera forum
its not only swiss, all german speakers, or basically entire europe is more or less close minded. they have superiority complex and lot of secrecy to maintain. specially german speakers are just too formal, and close to their own groups
@ roger
pubblicato da canuck s in Svizzera forum
first of all Roger, i have to say thank you. You are the very first swiss person who is able to give an intelligent constructive view on the whole situation. I'm just so sick and tired of hearing "well, if you don't like it, leave our country". Thats why i'mk so happy that there are people like you who are trying to put things into perspective for us.
Just a quick not about the Kantönligeist, i think every country has those sort of identity divisions, for example I come from the province Alberta, where the two cities Edmonton and Calgary (with Edmontonians and Calgarians) have a friendly rivalry. We say Calgary sucks (esp when it comes to hockey, think FCB VS FCZ) and Calgary says the same, but when it comes to national pride we are all one. There also a division between west and east, and even the "newfies" and "quebecers" who have their whole own thing going on (kinda like the welsher). But all that aside, i've never heard (nor do i see) that that arguing point plays a factor. On a whole we tend to be friendly people. Not all necessarily outgoing, but friendly. And Canada has just as many foreigners as Swizterland. So I dunno what it is. Maybe once a foreigner gets to Canada he can finally be at ease? I met really good friends of mine, they immigrated from Russia. (Here the swiss hate russians. I never even knew what an Albanian was before I moved here. I also never had comments to me and i quote " you better take your husbands name when you marry because your name is too jugo" in Canada. I guess i was in shock because in Canada we almost have an opposite problem going on. Partly because of the negativity and the mistakes made with the aboriginals 300 years ago and the increased pressure for equal rights, the current situation is favourable to foreigners. You have better chanced if youre darnk skinned and female than you do if you're white. I came to Switzerland totally naive thinking ,yea their gonna love me, im a foreigner. Buzzer. How wrong i was. But the racial terms aside, i find myself to be more tense here than back home. I find myself having to worry about if im goign about the proper way with the swiss, all self concious, instead of just being laid back and easy going. Swiss (in my experience thus far) have a hard time understanding what that is, due to their reservations. :) So the next time I'll just tell them to ease up, i dont bite. Well, only upon request ;)
But seriously, what are you guys scared of? We are already here, so us taking jobs away isnt going to change much. But wheres the risk in trying out a new friendship. You can always back out if you aren't interested? ... Thanks again Roger for your answers. Wish there were more of you here :D
the "kantönligeist"
pubblicato da Roger B in Svizzera forum
Well, maybe to be a bit more precise, the "Kantönligeist" not only refers to the mocking of others but also to our sometimes extreme federalism. As you might know, our Cantons enjoy a farily high degree of autonomy, which most of them tend to guard quite strictly. Kantönligeist therefore can also mean that we stick to 26 diffferent laws of tax, police or whatever instead of centralizing, and all attempts to centralization are resisted quite fiercly.
Of course you are right with your example regarding identity. However, I really can observe, with myself and with others, that we really tend to shift between our "identities" (maybe that's even too big a word for this circumstance) while being together with different people. For instance, I work in a very international company with many expats, over lunch I kind of catch myself switching back and forth, being, to tease, the "Oberländer" vs. the "Stadtzürcher" when talking to my collegues from Zurich, but taking a more "national" attitude when I speak to the expats. It must be confusing for someone outside of Switzerland hearing us "bashing" each other, especially if you can't really distinguish whether it is meant to be taken seriously or not.
Well, and to be honest, there's no other way than confirming that it is quite hard to make friends in Switzerland. Otherwise there would just not be so many stories about it. But at that point, I just want to come back to the point in my first mail: It's not just like that for foreigners. A great many Swiss strugle with the exact same issue. So it's not really something that is geared against foreigners. I even think that sometimes it's easier for foreigners to make friends in Switzerland than it is for the Swiss themselves (you're different, making you interesting).
Why are we like that, well traditionally we have been rather reserved and cautious. Might actually be the same impuls that creates the "Kantönligeist", but in the end what is required to overcome this reservation is really not to be intimidated by it and try it nonetheless. It's not that we are unfriendly, it's just that we are really cautious and like to play it safe.
You're right
pubblicato da Daniel Novo in Svizzera forum
You're right. I wasn't saying it is ill intended. Like someone from St. Gallen really hates an Appenzeller. It is just there, deep rooted and on the surface of it harmless. But if you want to know why it is hard to make Swiss friends I can't help but feel the Kantönligeist (never really understood the expression until now, thanks!) does play a considerable role at least explain the Swiss outlook on different people.
And yes, again you're right, we have multiple identities but that doesn't make it necessary to define each or any one of them by exclusion. To use your example, if you meet an American in Zürich are assuming the European identity or bist du der Oberländer? Wanna crank it up a notch? You're out with one Oberländer colleague and a guy from work, Ausländer, which identity do you assume? And if it is two Oberländer?
This discussion can go on forever. My only references are Brazil, where I was born, England and US where I lived for some time and now Switzerland. And maybe I am getting older or just maybe it is really harder to make friends here in Switzerland.
Can't realy agree
pubblicato da Roger B in Svizzera forum
I'm sorry but that's just a bit too much taking the nominal for the real value. Much of what you describe is not a "true" attitude but more a way to make fun of each other. Stereotyping each other is like a national sport, but no one, and I need to know because I'm on of those apparently so despised "Zürcher", really takes the things dead seariously (it's teasing each other, nothing more). You can't realy derive any meaningful conclusion out of that particular phenomenon.
And saying that we define us from what we leave out, while having certainly some currency when it comes to sports or any competition, can certainly not be extended to culture in general. In Switzerland, a lot of things work differently than say in Germany, and on a pure material, countable aspect it might even be safe to say, "better" than in most neighbouring countries, and this gives som of us some pride.
And finaly, I am not all that sure if there really is so much a difference between Switzerland and other countries when it comes to questions of center vs. periphery and majority vs. minority etc. I mean, the Quebecois are also quite fixed on their identity, the Southerners in the US also put a premium on their heritage and last but not least, the Scots don't want to be mistaken for Englishmen... I think we could expand that little list to eternity and beyond.
In my opinion, what this really tells us is that perceived identity really is dependent on the situation you are in. If we go with Amartya Sen, no person has only one identity, we're multi-identical people. To make a somewhat general example: If I am in the US, I am a European, if I am somewhere in Europe, I'm Swiss, if I am in Switzerland I'm a Zürcher and finally to break it further down, if I'm in Zürich I'm an Oberländer. We are multi-layered. We could even expand that to include football clubs, politics or type of food we like. So making general statements about where the Swiss do derive there identity from are quite hard to make, as it depends really on both circumstance and perspective.
Now, my statement might be somewhat off-topic, but I really think one should not put too much currency into the "Kantönligeist" and assorted topics.
@ Canuck
pubblicato da Daniel Novo in Svizzera forum
I don't think they are trying to make it harder. It is just their outlook on "strangers". And I don't think it has anything to do with us being Ausländer. Again, I think I understand why. Switzerland in itself is defined by what they leave out (Germany, France and Italy) rather than what they absorb like Canada (French and Anglo-Saxon mixes) or Brazil (pretty much every possible mix).
From every little Dorf to the Rathaus in Bern there is a constant struggle to define "the us". I live in St. Gallen and it is very curious to see the lengths people go to differentiate themselves from the Appenzeller living not even 20 km from here. In the simple pass time of Jass they mix-up rules and understandings so the Appezeller Jass table is just for Appenzellers. Now imagine if you can't even play Jass? Heck! The whole dialect thing is just deep rooted way of highlighting the slightest differences. We in Canada and Brazil don't even speak our native languages!
How many times have I've heard... oh.. der zücher...oh.. der thurgauer... oh... der walliser like it was a whole different country. (okay Wallis might be really a different country)It is hard. Just keep trying and you might find some friends.
Swiss Friends
pubblicato da Roger B in Svizzera forum
Well, as I said, I don't know in what village you live, but in mine (ok in my opinion it's not really a village anymore its more a little city of around 9.5 thousand) there really is plenty of opportunity (ok, it's almost impossible that everyone will find a club that's suitable for him). From the ubiquitous "Turnverein" over the reading club to the local women's political forum, there is really plenty of opportunity. Of course if you live in a close knit community of a couple of hundred people, I grant it, it gets difficult. But I think, as has been said before, this is not really a Swiss specific issue.
But honestly, what I don't really get, and you don't have to answer to this if you don't want to, but you are married to a Swiss bloke, why do you have an issue finding Swiss friends? I mean, some of my friends have girlfriends that come from other countries, that speak no German and only English (and not all so fluently), but we were always very keen of giving them a warm welcome and they were fairly good integrated.
Why is it so hard to make friends in Switzerland??
pubblicato da Utente eliminato in Svizzera forum
Once you get out of the city anywhere life can be very different. I once had to live in a tiny village in the countryside in England for one job I had and it was SO utterly boring and 99% of the people were freaks. They weren't particularly friendly and their only idea of entertainment was to go and get really drunk. Pretty quickly I moved back to London and civilisation. The commute from London was terrible but knowing I didn't have to live alongside weirdos always made me feel much better :)
@ Roger and Daniel
pubblicato da canuck s in Svizzera forum
Danke für eure antworten. Mein Deutsch ist nicht das problem, ich verstehe und spreche deutsch gut genug das alle können mich verstehen. Mein deutsch ist zwar nicht perfekt aber viel besser als andere ausländer wo leben hier schon viel länger. Da mein mann schweizer ist, verstehe ich auch schweizer deutch zu 90%. Ab und zu gibts ein wort das ich nicht verstehe, aber vom zuzammenhang gehts. :) Wenn ich mich mit schweizern unterhalte, versuche ich sogar schweizer deutsch su reden! Mangisch kommts gut an, mangisch nid! :)
So thank you both for your views. I cant compare swiss city to countryside since ive ever only lived in Canadian city and Swiss countryside. I thank you both for your input, i understand that being reserved can be mistaken for ignorance, and I'm trying to overcome this. But on the other hand I'm tired on inviting everyone for coffee or to go to the lake, and getting no interest. On a positive note, I have recently managed to make 2 swiss friends, all on my own, through no connection from my hubby whatsoever. (Maybe its just his entire clique thats "bünzli". At any rate, these 2 new girls are really an exception for me, and proof that it is possible to make friends here. You just have to be really determined and do alot of weeding. But even with these girls i notice its taking forever and a day for them to ease up, def. not what i experience i canada. But anyways, immerhin!!!!
On a negtaive note, I have to comment on the "verein" bullshit. My village does have a verein. A turn verein. Wow. So its my fault now that i dont like turnen? Oh, wait I can join the homemakers verein. Sorry, I find the limited choice of vereins appalling and would never join one. Maybe if they had something interesting.
At any rate, its possible, I just want to get the note to the swiss people out there: if a foreigner makes a viable effort to get to know you, don't make it harder on us just so you can have the satisfaction of contributing to the already negative reputation that foreigners have! Some of us are funny, genuine and caring, and can become a better friend than that one idiot you went to school with. Be open minded! :)Give us a chance!